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The United States Supreme Court will again tackle the issue of affirmative action where it pertains to college admissions this fall.
Justice Elena Kagan has recused herself from the case.
CoH applies. Off topic, derailing or personal attacks will be deleted without warning.
This fall SCOTUS will revisit affirmative action in college admissions.
#1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:01 PM ESTAs long as Affirmative Action includes pushing American citizens aside in favor of illegal aliens, I cannot support it.
#2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:03 PM ESTscreminmimi, illegal aliens are not illegable for this program.
Native America students are, and it has helped many attain a degree.
Thanks for visiting niijii
I am Native American, and I typically refuse to report my race if at all possible. If not, I will choose "other." I do not want to be selected (or excluded) for anything, especially anything that should be based on my grades and intellectual achievement, based upon my race. I clawed my way up from nothing. I was poor, then even poorer. Worked my way through college with help from the grants and loans everyone else of my income bracket was able to get, in addition to a scholarship I won based solely upon my ACT score. My race is no handicap to my intellect. I feel that grades and test scores alone should determine who gets into universities. I abhor the thought of someone worthy and capable not getting the spot in favor of someone who may be a little less worthy and capable but is the necessary "color" or "race."
Super Ultra, I hope you don't feel that you the only one that has clawed their way up for the bottom, or have been poor. There are many of use that have done the same.
I abhor the thought of someone worthy and capable not getting a spot because of their race. In a perfect world that wouldn't happen, but unfortunetly we don't live in a perfect world, and it has happened.
Then in 2007, the court did away with affirmative action programs in public high schools, saying, “The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.”
I tend to agree with that statement. I think the law is well-intentioned, but that discrimination shouldn't be a basis for admission to school or work.
#3 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:04 PM ESTThanks for stopping by Grisham.
In a perfect world I would agree, but it's not a perfect world and many minorties have been helped and attained a degree.
Waanakiwin niijii
When these Universities figure out how to get All the eligible students admitted ...there wouldn't Be a problem geez. They get enough money, Fix it...or this is going to drag on Forever. geez
clipping to the Supreme Court Watch group.
#4 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:33 PM ESTThanks for visiting m. I don't know if that possible, with space and money restraints we may be dreaming of something that isn't likely to happen.
Waanakiwin niijii
K, they have money for Football stadiums, they have money for professor's that ditch the classes on their postgrad students. They have the money, they just Won't Spend it. Except on all kinds of extras...that's why the state colleges are being told....tighten up and keep student fees down.
Money that is spent on football stadiums and other sports costs come from money raised within the sports (ie television reimbursement, bowl winnings, ticket sales, and specified alumni donations). The college or university never actually has that money in its coffers. It goes straight into a sports account, and that is separate from academic funds.
And I want you to understand this right now, professor's DO NOT ditch classes on their grad students! They handle labs and reading labs, just as they have done for decades now. They are put in charge of these sessions in order to help teach them how to become college and university professors themselves. It is the best way to train someone how to teach at that level! However, the class is not just dumped on the grad student. The grad student actually uses the lesson plans created by the professor, and they are closely supervised by the professor in the class. With the recent economic crisis, public and private universities and colleges are feeling the pinch. Many of us who are professors are taking on a load and a half or a double load of classes. We are also fiscally unable to provide assistantships to the same number of grad students. That has also increased our teaching loads. I am teaching two extra classes this term alone without pay. I have been doing that for the last two years. How many years are you willing to volunteer to work 60 hours and only get paid for 40? I don't have to do this. Refusing will not hurt my career, as I am tenured. I am doing it for the love of teaching. Can you say the same about your job?
Dr, thanks for the information re the workings of a university.
We had a situation where I live where a professor resigned or took a leave of absence, not sure which to run for public office. She won and held the seat for two years then lost in her reelection bid. She was hired back at the university at a salary of $110,000 to teach one class when the rules clearly stated that she must teach three classes per week. The university was in the mist of lay offs and cutting back on some of the classes that they offered. Of course when this was found out there was a real ruckus. She then taught for one year and took a buy out of $100,000 plus and is now running for another political seat.
I believe that what the university did was not in the best interest of the students, faculty or the public, yet it was done. I wonder how pervasive this type of situation is. Have you been faced with situations like this? Is there a ''good old boys/girls'' club within the university structure?
Dr Truth....mea culpa on the word 'dumped'....though back in the day, that was what one grad student said to me. And truth be known the Professor was lazy. There were and are a few in the system unfortunately. But I shouldn't have broad brushed your profession. Sorry.
As to the Football...I still don't think that the 'emphasis' for a University should be their football or basketball program. Other Universities across the world do ok without a 'game' being the 'Star' of their campus. I've asked people about what they knew about... for example the U of Alabama...and the answer? "Go Big Red" as if that was the Most they knew about the University of Alabama. Not an exactly sterling recommendation for any University.
IMO the alumni donations .... would best be spent somewhere else.
Affirmative action does nothing for anyone. All it does is indicate that colleges which use race-based admissions promote a belief that blacks and Hispanics are not mentally equal to whites and Asians and therefore need extra points in order to compete. College admissions should be based solely on academics. There shouldn't even be space on the application to indicate the applicant's ethnic background.
#5 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:38 PM ESTDani, thanks for visiting. I agree if it was a perfect world, but it isn't. I would love to see the top 10% admitted irregarless of race, but then there is the ''family tradition'' and the big donors that have sway on getting their kids or friends admitted.
I was going to pass on responding to this issue, as I have read about it several times today. However, there are a few comments that need to be addressed.
Affirmative Action does nothing to assist the undocumented worker above a citizen. You will have an impossible row to hoe to make that claim even remotely true. You cannot blame every ail on undocumented workers.
Universities and Colleges would love to admit all eligible students. However, there are factors to consider. The most important factor is due to size. We do not have the dorm facilities to accommodate more students. We do not have the classrooms to accommodate more students. We do not have the faculty size to accommodate more students. The percentage of accepted students varies each year, it is calculated by the amount of students that are already attending and the amount of classes it is possible to hold during the academic year. It is this equation that determines the number of students the college or university is able to hold. Now, this "any student eligible" goal can be accomplished. However, it would require a hike in tuition to pay for the construction of more classroom buildings and dorm buildings. It would also require a hike in your taxes, for public universities and colleges, or another hike in tuition, for private schools, to pay for the educators necessary to accommodate the influx.
As for the instance that you believe we "get enough money", when you consider the overhead in running a public university and the necessary technological upgrades to remain competitive, you would understand that the myth of this being a million industry is a myth. For public colleges and universities, the amount the government will provide for an academic institution is based on the amount spent at the school. Yes, the government monitors where the money goes.
Initially, Affirmative Action had a place in education. When it was first created, it was not to sponsor the belief that Blacks or Hispanics or Native Americans were not mentally equal to Whites. It was a response to the disparity in educational services to minority students who, as a result of the disparity, showed marked difference in the standardized entrance exams. It was very legitimate at the time of its inception. However, most schools are doing away with the standard Affirmative Action in lieu of Top Ten ranking and the elimination, or reduction in value, of standardized entrance exams. I believe this is the best alternative, as long as we continue to see equal access to education regardless of race. Yet, if we are eliminating Affirmative Action, we also need to eliminate the unspoken affirmative action of legacy enrollment. It should not matter if every one of your family members have attended that school since its inception, you must compete for your spot just like the kid from the inner city.
#6 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:35 PM ESTThanks for visiting Dr. Excellent points and I do agree with them. The last point that you made re ''legacy enrollment''is far more prevalent then most think.
What is most interesting is that the lady bringing the suit was not even part of the top ten. I wonder how this will play out being that she really has no leg to stand on.
I saw that, I believe she was in the top 12%, so really I don't see what she is complaining about.
I think she was complaining because other applicants with grades worse than hers were accepted.
But, I agree that the legitimacy of her suit is questionable, unless the admissions folks had admitted all the 10% applications and was now expanding the list of those who are eligible.
Perhaps she is suing only because the school is not following it own rules.
Maybe she should realize that it isn't just grades that get you into college. BTW, how does she know the other applicants' grades? Those are protected under FERPA.
Is the kagan troll ever going to sit in on a case. She's like tits on a bull.
#7 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:51 PM ESTjrone, your post has nothing to do with the article. Stick to the point if you have something to add.
Hmm. Well it was in the article that she recused herself. Wonder why they put that in there?
jrone, Justice Elena Kagan is doing what other Justice's have done in the past when they have had direct contact with a case. It is done in many courts down to the lowest of the courts. Why would one of the Justice's of the court of last resort not do the same. As to the rest of your comment, that definitely had nothing to do with the article or the topic.
And Justice Kagan, whether someone likes her or not, the Respect that is owed to someone for attaining the position of a Supreme Court Justice in discussing their name should not be associated in the same breath or sentence with troll. The name calling in our society has gone beyond nonsense and it is not helping keep this nation civilized.
Which is how we should be projecting an image of in All public forums, which this is as well. NV has many, many members that are from other countries as well as being viewable by the whole internet public whether they are members or not.
Affirmative action is no longer needed in school or the work place, it is a very racist law. It is time people are accepted in school on how well they do or the work place without giving the jobs to people who didn't push to get ahead just want everything handed to them for their race or they are poor.
#8 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:46 AM ESTi totally agree that everything should be fair. but look who got a headstart and look who did not? in order to TRY and even the race, these special programs are created.
jdl, before the AA was inacted it was very racists, the law was to try to even the playing field.
As for your statement ''just want everything handed to them for their race of they are poor'' what information or stat's do you have to back that up?
has anyone ever wonder what America would be like had this country kept it's word and pay reparations to former slaves? would there be a need for Affirmative Action? would black folks still have to depend on the white man for a job? would black folks still be needing special laws that will help them get into college? my answer would be no!
i know Affirmative Action is not for black folks only, but i'm sure we are the root to such laws. just as we are the root to the civil rights movement, but the greatest benefactors from that are white women. before CRM, white women could not get certain jobs. they had trouble being able to attended certain schools, and they were not paid nowhere near the same as white men doing the same job. so, being that most likely we are the root of AA and other token reparations, i wonder how life would be in this country had real reparations been paid in the first place.
#9 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:38 AM ESTDSKI, I've often wondered if this country kept it's word and payed reparations to Native Americans, the same logic applies to us as well as to blacks folks.
Thanks for stopping by.
had this country kept it's word and pay reparations to former slaves?
What reparations?
There were never any promised. If you are talking about he old "40 acres and a mule" bit, that was a SINGLE general who said that, who overstepped his bounds and was slapped down by the "government". He had no authority to make that promise and it was NOT binding on the country as a whole.
Look y'all want preference and wish to continue to tell your young folks that they "need" this assistance because they are not as good as everyone else? Well more power to ya, I just think that you should really be looking at the message you are sending.
Why do you think that there are so many(of ALL races) out there now a days "gaming the system"? That's because they have watched and learned that this is acceptable behavior in this country now a days.
[ they "need" this assistance because they are not as good as everyone else?]
What it do Kazzy Kaz? i never said black folks are not as good as everyone else. however, i would say that we caught a hell unlike everyone else. that hell has caused generation after generation to be dependant. it was a well design plan to keep black folks from advancing higher than those who once held them down.
[I just think that you should really be looking at the message you are sending.]
the message i'm sending is the reason why we need AA is because we've been denied in almost every are of American life. laws were created to keep us from advancing. these laws lasted for 100 EXTRA years after slavery. Jim Crow was a well design plan to keep black folks from advancing higher than those who once held them down. being that the ink is barely dry on Jim Crow laws, how do you think that has effected the generation of today?
[Why do you think that there are so many(of ALL races) out there now a days "gaming the system"?]
you think they got it from black folks? well we are new to 'gaming the system' compared to those who have benefitted (game) the system for 100's of years.
the message i'm sending is the reason why we need AA is because we've been denied in almost every are of American life.
Then you should back my plan that NO "whites" should be hired until EVERY "Black" person in this country is employed in an "executive type" of position, right? /sarc
It NEVER fails to amaze me that the folks who scream the loudest about "discrimination" are more than willing to employ it as long as it is not their group who suffers from it.
Do you honestly believe that "2 wrongs make a right"?
You know I attended an "inner-city" school, I managed to get an education from that school. As a matter of fact I got a BETTER education from that school than I did from the "suburban" school that my mother moved us out to.
Of course that might have been because I actually DID the school work in the "inner-city" school, unlike many of my "minority" classmates who were more interested in disrupting the class than learning anything.
But that was because "the white man was keeping them down" right?
On a more serious note here, let's look at graduation rates.
Among these "affirmative action" admission folks, what the rate of graduation compared to those who DO NOT have this admission advantage?
Also do you HONESTLY think it's right that certain groups(Asians suffer the most from this) should be required to have much higher scores(any where from 100 points and higher on the SAT's) to have an EQUAL chance of admission to a school?
A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it's 2400). Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/story/2011-12-03/asian-students-college-applications/51620236/1
Is that HONESTLY what you consider "Equality"?
[Then you should back my plan that NO "whites" should be hired until EVERY "Black" person in this country is employed in an "executive type" of position, right? /sarc]
I DO NOT BACK SUCH A THING! once again you fail to realize the 300+yrs headstart white folks got in this country. which in turn makes you fail to realize why programs like AA need to exist.
[folks who scream the loudest about "discrimination" are more than willing to employ it as long as it is not their group who suffers from it]
black folks get an F when it's comes to discrimination. we are just not good at at.
now, if all the apples were given to one group while the other group got sour grapes, don't you think it's fair that most of the next load of apples should go to those who never got any? what trips me out when that happen are the complaints from those who never was denied any apples at all.
[Do you honestly believe that "2 wrongs make a right"?]
i don't see it as two wrongs. i see it as correcting, or trying to correct the first wrong. once again, if you got a 100yrd head start in a foot race, why would get upset when the next runner gets his extr 100yrds?
[certain groups(Asians suffer the most from this) should be required to have much higher scores]
to be honest i don't think it's right. then again, i'd be more willing to fix what's wrong with AA than to just get rid of it. again, that 300yrs headstart white folks got over everyone else in America can not be ignored. the more it is, the more folks think the race was always even. well i know the truth.
black folks get an F when it's comes to discrimination. we are just not good at at.
I beg to differ... I have seen plenty of racism come from blacks. I live in a mixed neighborhood and have seen it first hand. It's just not reported by the media because only us "white boys' are racist.
I will also add that any and all AA programs should be done away with. It's was needed when first implemented but now is nothing but a crutch for people.
Kaz,
AA was implemented to even the playing field which had been in favor of white for decades. Now that the minorities are gaining ground and graduating in larger numbers it has become a racist policy to whites and should be abolished.
Let's do this. We'll keep it in place for as long as the whites had everything in their favor. That could end AA in another couple of hundred years.
i never said some of us did not practice it. i said WE get an F when is comes to practicing it. if we were good at denying others, we'd benefit like white folks benefitted from it.
Kavika
OK, got it.
It REALLY isn't about "equality", it's about "payback", right?
That's fine, as long as you realize that those you are getting "payback" upon are NOT the ones who did you wrong in the first place.
Now if YOU can live with punishing someone based ONLY upon their skin color, well more power to ya, and I wouldn't want to be ya.
Didn't the whites punish the minorities for centuries, and now your complaining because there is a law that levels the playing field!!! Talk about being hypocritical.
Your rightous indignation really is something to behold.
BTW, the law is equality, so what are you complaining about.
because there is a law that levels the playing field!!! Talk about being hypocritical.
Levels the playing field? You're kidding right?
You DO realize that there are laws that have been written in every state and at the federal level that award contracts based NOT upon the bids but upon the "race" of the owner of the company.
You call THAT equality?
If it was still the other way around you'd be screaming bloody murder.
Look I have ALWAYS thought that if ANY group had a "right" to bitch about how they've been treated in this country it's the Native Americans. They have gotten a raw deal from the get go. I always feel good when a new casino opens that actually makes money and improves things for a tribe, or when oil and mineral deposits are found under the "unwanted" land that was set aside for reservations. I consider that to be "poetic justice".
BUT, what is happening now is NOT addressing that, it's some sort of sick "payback" that folks are trying to get thru the courts because they weren't strong enough to get it on the battlefield.
In other words nothing more than "sour grapes".
Just remember "what goes around, comes around".
So continue to practice the "2 wrongs, make a right" philosophy and it will come back around and bite your descendants in the azz.
Kaz, your comment is so full of holes that I won't even respond.
I don't understand how, or why, students parents spend thousands and thousands of dollars, for their kids to go off and party at college, when there are students out there that deserve to get into a good college ,and will work hard, but are unable to attend because of discrimination ,orl ack of funds. It's just wrong!!
#10 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:39 AM ESTThanks for stopping by tzia..It's a problem that leaves many deserving kids out of college.
Waanakiwin niijii
#11 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:11 AM ESTAffirmative action does nothing for anyone. All it does is indicate that colleges which use race-based admissions promote a belief that blacks and Hispanics are not mentally equal to whites and Asians and therefore need extra points in order to compete. College admissions should be based solely on academics. There shouldn't even be space on the application to indicate the applicant's ethnic background.
this post is so off based that i have to rspond. in the years preceeding my enrollment in my university they had no african americans enrolled. the black students were all from africa. there is no way that anyone can say credibly that there were no "black" students elligible in the state of california to be enrolled in san jose state university.
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Amerstud/blackhistoryatkenyon/Individual%20Pages/History%20of%20Black%20Education.htm
Before the beginning of the large-scale entry of Black students into white universities in 1965-66, the academic world itself scarcely noticed Blacks. -Allen Ballard, The Education of Black Folk
a study from saint cloud university
http://repository.stcloudstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=ews_wps&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dhistory%2520of%2520anti%2520black%2520racism%2520in%2520college%2520enrollment%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D6%26ved%3D0CEgQFjAF%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Frepository.stcloudstate.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1003%2526context%253Dews_wps%26ei%3DDxxFT--0KcPSiAKIpNSmDg%26usg%3DAFQjCNEsFbSD3VzzBzgUl-ZMbC83AqAKOA#search=%22history%20anti%20black%20racism%20college%20enrollment%22
Race, Merit, and College Admissions
Luke S. Tripp
, lstripp@stcloudstate.edu
William G. Bowen and Derek Bok, the former presidents of Princeton and Harvard Universities, respectively, document in their book, The Shape of the River, how Black students who benefited
indenting not working again
from affirmative action have fared both during and after college. The book is based on a study of 45,184 students who entered 28 selective colleges in the fall of 1976 or the fall of 1989 (Bowen and Bok 1998). They found that about 75 per cent of the Black students who entered the 28 colleges in 1989 graduated within six years. Of the Black students with combined SAT scores below 1000 who attended the eight most selective colleges in the data, 88 per cent graduated. Moreover, Black graduates were more likely than White graduates to earn graduate degrees. Forty percent of the Black students who entered the 28 colleges in 1976 earned a graduate or professional degree,compared with 37 per cent of the White students who entered in that year. In my own longitudinal study of Black students who were admitted to the University of Michigan under a special program because their SAT scores were generally lower than their White counterparts, I found that slightly over one-third of those who graduated earned advanced degrees, including almost one-fourth who earned doctorates. These achievements suggest that they had both the motivation and the ability to compete academically at the highest levels. A majority of the graduates indicated that they were glad they attended Michigan and described their experiences in positive terms, commenting favorably on academic discipline and the camaraderie among Black students (Tripp 1987).
#12 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:03 PM ESTkappa, stat's and actual facts will not change minds that are certain that they are being picked on.
My proposel is that we leave it in place for as long as the non minorities had the upper hand. Another couple of hundred years should do the trick.
Thanks for visiting my friend
i'm white, my ancestors were immigrants in the early 1900s and never owned slaves, why should i have to step aside?
#13 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:17 PM ESTAffirmative action NEVER required you to step aside. It merely assisted those who faced oppression to gain equality.
StupidLoon, it is not just the Blacks, it's Native American, and other minorities. You are NOT being asked to step aside. The AA was put in place to leval the playing field that, up to the time the it was enacted was not level in any sense of the word.
[i'm white, my ancestors were immigrants in the early 1900s and never owned slaves, why should i have to step aside?]
mine were immigrants (if that's what you want to cal them) that came here long before the 1900's. guess who had more rights than my ancestors the moment they step foot on American soil? your ancestors. black folks caught all the hell anyone could take in order for your ancestors, as well as 'new comers' to enjoy American freedom.
Loon
While these folks TRY and tell you that AA is not forcing you to "step aside", both you AND they know better.
When there are "quota's" put into place stating that a certain percentage of folks hired need to be of a certain race, THAT is not "equality".
When the qualifying scores are lowered on employment tests because a certain group is unable to pass the test, THAT is not "equality".
When admissions to colleges give "preference" based upon race and allow LOWER scoring candidates admission to reach some sort of "diversity" goal, THAT is not "equality".
When government contracts are awarded based upon the company owners "race" rather than the amount of the bid, THAT is not "equality".
When programs are put into place in the military to pursue the promotion and education of folks based upon their "race" instead of their performance, THAT is not "equality".
The list goes on and on, and it effects everyone in this country.
But according to the folks who want "payback" instead of actual "equality", YES you must "step aside" for no other reason than the color of your skin.
[But according to the folks who want "payback" instead of actual "equality", YES you must "step aside" for no other reason than the color of your skin.]
If a someone stole a million dollars from you and said sorry, would that make you feel better or would you rather have your money back?
Oh get over it. Life is hard. People are discriminated upon based upon a hundred different things and the odds are that's NEVER going to be completely eradicated. Either you can sit on your butt and whine about it, or you can go out, better yourself in the best way you can, and continue to keep striving to carve out your own life. @!$%# ain't fair folks, it's the truth.
I want to thank you. Before I read your responses, I thought everyone knew how Affirmative Action worked in the collegiate level. Now, I understand there is still a block of people who truly have no clue about it at all.
Super, I'm not sure who you are addressing with the ''get over it'' and ''whining'' comment, but I don't see anyone doing that. What were tallking about here is that SCOTUS is going to revist AA. They will either keep it or stop it. Quite simply really.
Waanakiwin (peace)
You see it how you see it, I see it how I see it. I see people still using it as an excuse not to excel.
One group that did exceedingly well under AA, are white women.
Just a thought.
I am all for a revisit of Affirmative Action in college admissions if legacy privilege is also revised.
Any educational institution that accepts Public Funds should go strictly by academic performance, creative acumen and measured potential. No child should be admitted simply because of color and class OR their parent's money and status.
Then the playing field will truly be even.
#14 - Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:25 AM ESTsunshine girl, did you feel the same way when these college's received public funds, including taxes paid my minorities that were discriminated against?
If so, then I can accept your argument.
Waanakiwin (peace)
Indeed Kavika!
But my comment was meant to point out the hypocrisy of those who denounce Affirmative Action and blame it for their rejection by their school of choice when these colleges also have an even bigger quota of legacy and privileged students to fill. You don't hear any protests about the wealthy white kid with mediocre or average grades who got in because his father donated a new wing to the library.
sunshine,
Thanks for the clarification. I do agree with that, the number of ''legacy students'' at our local University is appalling. As you stated, a contribution to the school opens many doors for less then qualified students.
Excellent point sunshine.
Thanks Kavika,
And don't get me started on the football and basketball scholarships. Athletics have superceeded academics in this country.
We are more interested in the next NFL Quaterback and not the next Einstein. No wonder the world is passing us by in science, medicine and technological innovation. It's almost like the days before the fall of the Roman Empire where the people were appeased with Gladiator matches instead of having their basic needs and civil rights met.
sunshine,
You hit on another sore point with me as well.
Athletics have superceeded academics in this country.
Agreed.
It wouldn't be quite as bad if the vast majority of those athletic students(I refuse to refer to them as student athletes) actually graduated with a meaningful and useful degree, but now a days they aren't even completing their educations, they are leaving school after 2 or 3 years to go pro. I personally think that anyone who does that should be liable to pay back every penny. I think it would be even better if they were also then forced to finance an academic scholarship for a student.
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